So, for Sharon, you already know my feelings on this because you were there so this will be a repeat for you but I am not sure why, but today I feel a little bit hyper-sensitive to my parenting skills and abilities. On a normal regular day, I don't feel so sensitive about the subject but for some reason today, I do. At pre-school we were asked about how we were disciplined as kids and if we thought it helped and how we discipline our children.
When we were young, we either sat on a chair, went to our room, or for me...I got spanked if I was especially bad (which was about maybe 6 times in my childhood that I was spanked). I just want to say that I do not believe in spanking kids. I don't threaten to do it but that said, I have spanked Tanner twice in his life. I am not proud of that but I'll be honest in saying that I did it. I felt horrible and guilty and like the worse parent ever after I did, but it takes a lot, and I mean A LOT for me to even think about spanking. Nevertheless, my normal method of discipline is to sit Tanner on a chair for things like hitting others, throwing his toys (and by throwing I mean actually aiming them at a specific person or potentially breakable object), or refusing to listen (which, actually doesn't happen all that often). He gets sent to his room for yelling or making lots of noise when he is playing his musical instruments and we are trying to study or have a quiet time. Tanner is generally a good boy and behaves reasonably well and is generally obedient. But like all kids, they have their moments.
My feelings are, and my experience with Tanner has been, that just sending him to his room does not work for him. He thinks it a play time and so if he does something negative or "breaks the rules" it's not really a consequence for him to go to his room. So we put him on a chair for "breaking the rules". He knows, when he gets off the chair, why he was on the chair and he says sorry.
Well, I got the impression from the teacher at pre-school that putting him on a chair is not discipline but punishment and we as parents should discipline, not punish, our children. I don't agree that putting a child on a chair is punishment. My opinion is that the child should think about what they did wrong and try not to do it again. Obviously, sometimes they are going to do the same "bad" thing they did to get the original time out, but at least they know what the consequence is.
Other people talk about natural consequences, but what is the natural consequence for hitting or hitting with a toy or throwing toys at things and people?
In my heart, I know that ultimately I am the parent and if it works for Tanner, then it should probably be okay.
I know that I frequently praise Tanner for being good and being helpful and doing kind things and for listening etc, etc, but why should a negative action equal a positive reward like playing in your room for breaking the rules?
Again, I know this is a "hot" topic for some, but I am interested in what other people have to say about this.
I'm just wondering, what other people's opinions on this are and if this has worked for them.
Well for now, that's it.
3 years ago
12 comments:
WEll, for now, I am just first going to say that I am totally confused as to why the teacher or principal or whoever at the school told you that sitting a child on a chair for time out to contemplate, somthing they have done wrong.... isn't discipline.... that it's a punishment. Huh????!!!
Totally confused by that one. Maybe they meant....oh who knows....I am not even going to try and figure that one out.
Second, I am going to say, that Mandy.....you are Tanner's mother. You of all people should know Tanner to a T. You know what is best for him and what WORKS for him. I am flabergasted that people at the school THINK they know best. Who decided that one?
I am SO confused. I would love to see what other people think of that one for sure.
My first thought - why on earth was the teacher telling you how to parent? That seems pretty inappropriate.
As for punishment vs. discipline - I think too many parents are into some new kind of parenting and there are way too many bratty, disrespectful kids out there. Like you said, you're the parent - and a good one - and you know what's best for Tanner. What works for some people doesn't work for me and vice versa. Timeouts don't really work for Nate, but sending him to his room where he has to be alone makes him crazy and he comes out ACTUALLY sorry, which is rare. I use that as my most serious "punishment", because yes, I do think that hitting, pushing, biting, calling names, throwing tantrums, etc deserve to be punished. (Not that I am a great example of discipline - my kid is pretty naughty, and I am pretty inconsistent.)
Bottom line - don't let anyone else tell you how you should be parenting. You can take advice and stuff, but you are a good person, and a good parent.
There was no mistaking that the teacher said that putting him on a chair is punishment, NOT discipline. She is constantly referring to this book 1-2-3 magic and the guy who wrote it says that that is punishment. I was totally confused on that one too! This lady is a parenting/life coach and I'm not sure why she feels she gets to tell us how to parent. If I were smart, I would have just kept my mouth shut but I was tired of feeling like her opinions were being pushed onto not only me but the other parents as well. It's a little frustrating sometimes and genereally I just take it with a grain of salt and let it roll off my back but yesterday, I felt like I should stand my ground.
Good for you! I have issues with people who parent from a book. Of course, there are some good "tips" out there on how to parent from books......but those who parent STRAIGHT out of a book and insist that that this is the only way to go for ALL parents.....are the ones I have issues with. I wouldn't doubt it if this teacher doesn't even have kids, or if she did, didn't even go by the book with her own kids. That's how it usually is. LOL!
The book 1,2,3 magic is amazing, and has really worked for Isaiah and I. BUT, as everyone else has said, you do what works for you. I have no illusions that what works for Isaiah is going to work for Denver. And it doesn't ALWAYS work either. As for the punishment vs. disciple, what is wrong with a little punishment? When you do something wrong you get punished. That's how it is in the real world. Isn't getting arrested and going to jail a punishment? I agree with Jamie about this new age parenting, I think it results in bratty kids.
If you break the law of the land you get punished, not disiplined and that is my feeling on putting Tanner on a chair. If you know the rules and break them, you get disiplined. I think she was trying to talk about positive disipline and how to do it but it doesn't always work for kids these days.
How would this teacher have you discipline? I don't think that it is her place to tell you how to discipine a child. obviously there is no reason for alarm as there is no abuse so she shoudl not be having this conversation.
I put Michaela is a chair once when we were at play group and I had a lady there tell another lady that if she ever saw me do that again she was going to call social services on me. i thought WHAT for putting her in a chair to think about what she had done and that throwing a toy is NOT appropriate behaviour.
First there is no spanking..I admit I spank Michaela as shee needs the physical shock to be brought to attetion...I don't like doing it, but there are times when it is needed and I don't go around with the intention of spanking her. However there are situations that need it..It works for her.
Now they are trying to tell us that Time outs are in a sense abusive. yes there are times when i time in as people call them do not work and you need to get drastic.
Children are a product of their environment and if they grow up in an encironment that tells them that they can get away with anything then we are in a ton of trouble. Children now are not like our parents when they were children. They respected their parents..we need to get back to that kind of thinking and the way we are going now it is NOT happening!!!
Keep up the good work and know that you are doing right by Tanner and that is all that you can do.
People act as though 'tough love' is a bad thing. Clearly it worked for a lot of us so why shouldn't it work now?
Hey the kids are asleep so I can post instead of just lurk!
First I'm going to clarify that this "school" we go to is for the kids and parents. The kids play while the parents discuss/learn about a parenting topic, which is why the teacher was giving advice. Like you Mandy, I never take all of it. Just like it is a bad idea to parent "by the book", I think it is wrong to go completely by what one single person tells you. You take a mix from several different sources and adapt them to your specific situation.
That being said, I understand punishment to be different from discipline. To me, discipline serves a purpose and guides your kid to do what is right. Punishment alone is just reactive and in the end the child learns nothing.
I'll use an example from today. My two year old son likes to climb and sometimes tries to climb the change table. This is bad because it is top heavy (especially with his baby sister on it) and it could tip easily, hurting them both seriously. He has been told many times before not to climb the change table, but today he again took the first step up when the baby was on it.
So he has done something wrong, and the rule in our house is that if you do something that could hurt you or someone else (biting, sticking things in the electrical outlets, and climbing the change table) you get a spank. Yes, yes, it sounds a bit silly to prevent pain with pain, but like Tara said, it gets their attention and we figure it is better than the alternative of them getting seriously hurt. We find it especially effective because we do only use it for the serious things - if we used it for everything it would become overused and enter the realm of "abuse" that caused everyone to oppose spanking in the first place.
Back to the point. If I just spanked his bottom until it was raw (I don't, btw) and did nothing else, all I would have done is punished him. But when I immediately follow (the one and only) spank with an explanation of WHAT he did that was wrong, and WHY he got the spank, then he has been disciplined. He now knows what he needs to not do to avoid another punishment. That's not to say that he won't try it ever again, but we have found that for the most part, this stops the behaviour. Who knows if this will work with his sister in the future, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Now for you Mandy, I definitely think that what you do is discipline. You are an amazing mother that doesn't spank Tanner, and for that you should be admired. But that doesn't mean that you don't give other punishments AS A PART of discipline. I think too many parents don't want to spank so they don't do any punishment at all, let alone any discipline, which leads to all the brats today.
So in Mandy's example - the punishment is to have to stop playing and sit on a chair. If that was all you did, then yes it would only be punishment. But because you have him think about what he did and talk with him about it, he has been disciplined and guided towards good behaviour.
I said in class that for the little things (which these days are mostly tantrums about little things), it works to send my little boy to his room. He will sit on his bed, cry for a little, then settle down and say something like "Mama I happy now". He just needs that time to calm down and to be honest, I need that time too. He's never in there longer than 2 minutes from when the door shuts to when I open it again. Then we have our chat about what he did and carry on with our day.
Right now, him being separated from what he was doing is a good enough punishment AS A PART of our discipline routine. But if he ever started just playing with his toys in there, then the punishment is no longer effective and I would do something else, probably the chair.
Of course a big part of all of this is to have the rules and consequences set up beforehand. The only thing worse than just plain punishment without discipline is punishment that the kid doesn't see coming. We know the laws of the land and what the consequences are. How would we like it if we walked down the street, stopped to smell a flower and then were automatically slapped with a $100 fine? Sounds extreme, I know, but it's pretty much the same as when parents suddenly go beserk and put their kids in time out or time in or give a spank or whatever it is you do. Yes it sucks when they draw on the dark walls with your white deodorant, but if they haven't been told NOT to, then it's not much different than the flower fine. Obviously it is impossible to list every possible thing that they will ever dream up (deodorant on the walls? Who could have predicted that?!!!), so the first time it happens you have to bite your tongue and say "No...we don't do that". Then the next time it happens, the rules have been set and you can discipline at will. I think that's where the 123 magic comes in. The 1 and 2 are to set up the rules and consequences, but by the time they've done it three times, they should know the rules and have to deal with the consequence.
Wow, I think I'm done. Maybe you'll be happy that my hands are usually busy when I'm reading your blog Mandy (or maybe you'll quit with the hot topics :D) Thanks to all who actually read this all and let me have my rant...and I full-heartedly agree that Mandy is awesome at what she does and doesn't need to take advice from anyone, be it the parent coach teacher (who even though she had 9 kids, none of those kids were Tanner) or even advice from me.
Thanks for that Sharon. I wasn't looking for praise on my parenting ablilties but I appreciate the compliment. It helps me to get other people's views and helps me to be a better parent...as I've said before. I feel sometimes like no one really participates and it's the same people and then M.R. goes off on her opinions and sometimes it feels a little one sided. Why couldn't I have just disagreed and then have it be done? Anyways, thanks again. I think if Tanner drew on my dark walls with white deoderant, I would think about spanking...maybe you'll have to start investing in clear deoderant...lol.
P.S. I will never stop with "hot topics". They make me grow.
I FOUND IT!!!! I found the exact sentence that says exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm so reatarded...it's from this book I got for Christmas call "The Book of Mormon, A Pattern for Parenting"
In the Chapter 'Allow Natural and Logical Consequences to Teach' it says "Taking away privileges or blessings is an example of a logical consequence. It can be effective while still leaving room for repentace."
When I was a teenager and come home late or talked back to my Mom, my consequence was having the privilege of talking on the phone away for a week. The natrual consequence would have been to just let me be tired but that wouldn't work and it wouldn't teach me anything and my Mom knew that.
Just like for Tanner, sending him to his room would not be effective because it is a privilge to play in his room and the privilige of playing with his toys when he's being "bad" needs to be taken away for a time.
Anyways, that says it all.
Amen sister!! Sounds like a good book.
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